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Bag Of Win and Perceived Probabilities (Edit #6)
Given the number of threads in Site Feedback, I wanted to make a quick entry about the Bag of Win, and the effect on the economy. I'll do a standard development update later this week.

Okay, time for a pop quiz!

Question: what's worse, a bag that pays out 1M gold, or a bag that pays out 100K gold?
Answer: you can't tell.

You see, what is entirely relevant is the expected outcome, which is basically the probability of all events multiplied against each other. So, let's say that you have a 1M bag that pays out 1% of the time, or a 100K bag that pays out 50% of the time:

1000000 * 0.01 = 10000 expected payout
100000 * 0.50 = 50000 expected payout

So, even though the first bag has a higher maximum payout, it has a much lower expected payout.

The Bag of Win has a maximum payout of 1M gold, but the chance of that payout is vanishingly small -- much, much less than 1%.

Question: If it's so low, how come so many people won 1M gold?
Answer: What we're running into here is perceived probability vs. actual probability. People come running to the boards when they win, and other people read that, and then decide that they win, and they hear about their friend that won 2M in 5 bags...

but this ignores the number of people that bought 10 bags and only ended up with clothing items, or bought it off the marketplace and got less than they paid, so on and so forth.

So: we've taken a look at the payout charts, and the expected gain, and we're pretty sure that this won't have an inflationary effect. You'll hear about people that won 1M gold, but remember for every 1M gold winner there are thousands of people who didn't win that 1M gold.

Question: If the bag isn't worth that much, how come the price is so high in the marketplace?
Answer: We've seen this behavior before. When items first come out, they tend to come out higher than a rational expectation would place them; after a while, they will drop to their actual value. The Bag of Win will drop quite a bit in the marketplace in the next few weeks.

Actually, more on this: whoever is paying 35K for these in the marketplace is nuts!

Question: So how much gold is flowing in and out?
Answer: Hard question to answer, because there is a lot of data to try and aggregate.

But, basically: the 2% marketplace tax generally covers gold generated by DC / commenting / page refreshes / whatnot. (Which reminds me that I would love to make the marketplace tax variable, modifying it up and down as the economy demands -- but that will probably never happen).

You'll note that we've been doing a fair number of gold sinks lately: new store releases, putting CAPTCHA on comments, so on and so forth, which all make less gold enter the system. Also, a number of the events that we have planned will have some pretty compelling gold sinks built into them.

Now, in theory, any amount of gold entering the system is a bad thing. But in reality it all depends on the size of the available money supply. That is: if you add 1M to an economy that has 10M circulating, then you will hurt the economy quite a bit. But if you add 1M to an economy that has 10B, then it is really a drop in the bucket, and the Gaia economy is much larger than that. If we sold this item indefinitely, and it sold well, then it would hurt the economy: you can't add gold indefinitely. But this is an extremely limited run item, and the total amount of gold added to the economy will be a fraction of a percentage of the total money supply.

Also note that there is some nominal payout from Cash Shop purchases anyway. You could, if you were incredibly lazy and short-sighted, buy a Cash Shop item and immediately turn around and sell it to the store. However, it's better for you to sell it on the marketplace -- you'll get a better price -- and when treated that way it is a deflationary force (more goods, same amount of money). However, popular Cash Shop items also drive more marketplace transactions, which means more money gets taken out by the 2% tax... it's all complicated and interwoven, but on the whole the Cash Shop has been a force for deflation.

Question: If this isn't causing inflation how come the price of (some item) jumped yesterday?
Answer: I think much of it is irrational. The prices for Bags of Win is too high, and the prices of some other coveted, expensive items have also increased, but they are above what they should be -- given the total percentage of money influx, there is no way that you should be seeing 20% increases in price.

This is an interesting question to me -- if someone has some particularly good examples of items that seemed to increase overnight, let me know in the comments. I would like to find out if it is an AI manipulation.

Without price controls, we can't/won't prevent irrational behavior. Some prices will increase for no good reason. However, I expect prices to dampen out once the furor dies out.

Question: You pulled the bags!
Answer: Is that a question?

But, yes, we pulled the bags. A couple of factors went in this decision:
- the bag was always meant to a limited release item
- sales of the bag were somewhat higher than projected
- negative community reaction
- marketplace fluctuations were higher than we like

Negative community reaction was a definite factor. Which is not to say that we won't stay the course if we think something is the right thing to do (i.e., the 2% marketplace tax), but we definitely pay attention to community reaction.

Marketplace fluctuations are something not easily predictable, since it depends on you. For example: I've seen the payoff charts, and there is no way the bag should be selling at 40k; that value is many multiples of the expected payoff. Similarly: the amount of gold added to the economy should not have caused drastic prices in some of the items mentioned in the comments, given the amount of gold and the existing size of the economy, but it did.

There are some aspects to the bags that I think were favorable: for example, the idea that someone new to the site could, through luck, become rich. A lottery is one way of accomplishing this, but I think we would structure it so that it is a net gold sink. (i.e., if you have to pay 100g to win 500k, then your chances of winning must be less than 1 in 5,000).

Question: No, really, Staff of Angels shot up.
Answer: I have a 9am meeting tomorrow, and I've spent a couple of hours at a SQL prompt at 3 in the morning. Sigh. Anyway, here's the price graph for Staff of Angels:

User Image

The dots are the average sale price, and the red line is the number of bid cancels or creations, scaled to fit within the same range as the price. Some really interesting things about this:
- other items do not have such a marked inflationary effect
- there are natural price fluctuations over time, with the most marked increase being today
- most of the people that bid high hadn't won large amounts with a Bag of Win
- many of the bidders had purchased a Staff of Angels recently -- i.e., the purchases seemed to be speculation and not for personal use

All of this is not conclusive (since I didn't do a second order analysis), but it does seem that this is a temporary run on the market, and will dampen out shortly. I'll look at it more this weekend.

I realize that this is a sensitive issue, and one that a lot of people in the community are worried about; please place your questions / comments below.






User Comments: [66] Viewing page 0 of 2 · Goto Page: 1 2 »  [add]
[DarkDreams]
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 03:22am
so its essentially like a lottery, or any form of business investment, there are chances with everything but you need to take the chance and put the money forward first provided you have it.

no matter what happens, it seems things like these are always going to be released and cause issues on gaia, its the same when the infinity hats came out, the omg boxes and even when the additional mc's were added.

thanks for addressing the main issues.


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 03:30am
Well I think it's the coolest thing Gaia has rolled out so far (except for maybe that G9 laptop I'm hoping to get one day...)

But anyway, it's like a 3 in 1:
1) Economic Stimulus Check (yep ripped that from the government)
2) Lottery
3) Instant win game (or lose if you buy it in the mp right now)

The economy and marketplace should look very interesting for a while...



France Hopper
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Diary Game
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 03:31am
Can you give a comparison of how much gold enters the economy on a normal day vs the average Bag of Win's payout * the number sold?


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 03:49am
Can you really say this isn't going to affect the economy?

Free money, in any form, hurts us. Sad to say it's true, but it is. This, for 99c, you get 5000g - 1mil. Either way, it's raising it no matter how you look at it. Prices in the marketplace are going up tremendously.

What I propose you do is make Salon Durem make more expensive hairs. You should also make a new store that sells other gold sinks. Maybe evolving items could be that way? Where you can only buy the item from there or the Cash shop? Either way, we need more gold sinks in order for us to recover.

Though, I am glad to see you've gotten some incentive into getting cash for Gaia. Bravo on that note.



Masco
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Miles To Go
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 04:00am
People get 5k minimum per bag. Thousands of bags have already been purchased and opened.

You say: MP 2% tax will deter inflation.
- 2% tax on most items is only up to 2k, on anything under 100k.

You say: Botters pumping gold into the system makes gold less valuable, increasing the price of items.

You say: We need more effective gold sinks.

*"You say" refers to statements previously made by Gaia staff.

Releasing these bags and then saying it will NOT effect the market contradicts everything 'you' have said about inflation.


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 04:11am
Even if a tiny percent of people are winning that million gold... YOU'RE STILL GENERATING MILLIONS OF GOLD FROM NOTHING.

This just doesn't seem like a good thing to me. sweatdrop

I bought five bags and got 110k pure out of them (plus some items I haven't looked up the worth of because I don't plan on selling them anyway).



Lazarus Larkin
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Spriteless Girl
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 04:13am
But it has affected inflation alot! Today! It may go down again, but today it was affected alot. And I took advantage of it, selling something that may not be worth that much tomorrow.

Edit: Also, even the clothes can mostly sell for 10k at least. With the random items from Mystery Hat or Orphans, the increase in MP usage is everyone buying one, with these it's buyers spending. But then, if new items are a gold sink, a gold glut every now and then won't kill, especially since this is temporary. It hurts those who quest by accumulating pure gold disproportionately to those who invest in items.


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 04:27am
What are your thoughts on the rise of MC prices? These are the items that most people are questing for. I'll exclude EIs, since you're rereleasing some old CS items through it.

*edits*
I decided to cut things down a bit, because the probability thing confuses me. Either way, you're earning gold no matter how much you pay. If everybody can earn gold at this rate, what's the point of deflation? sweatdrop



Yen Quest
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Makoto_Gin
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 04:42am
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[♦] [♥] [♦]
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I actually don't see that much of a problem due to the fact that items like this usually do tend to be quite high in the marketplace when first out the gate,causing other things to go up.People who normally wouldn't be able to afford certain things will have the gold to do so,and it will go right back out the system as fast as it came in,and the prices on items will eventually pan back out after awhile.People do tend to go nuts when we get new items,no exception except for the chances of getting some gold.On top of that,given the chances of actually getting 1mil along with the number of people on here,it's quite low.As you pointed out,it comes down to probability...and chance.

Also,I like the comment France made xd .



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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 04:55am
Thank you very much... I was starting to invent a code that could murder people in the GCD over the internet because of the widespread panic. I actually saw someone wearing a pair of DJ headphones saying how he wouldn't be able to get any of the items he wanted anymore because inflation would be so crazy, so there's no point for him to be on Gaia... so he's gonna let his account sit and build up worth instead.

Terrible f***cking luck, I know.

...I wish someone would kindly explain to him the reason why his headphones are worth an untold amount of millions is because of Gaias botting epidemic of earlier years that funneled countless millions into the community... and that we're so sorry he won't be able to afford some other items worth countless millions, even though he could probably afford to have every monthly collectible and cash shop item that comes out for the next 100 years. burning_eyes (EDIT: Without spending a dime of real money)

I'm all about items like this... sell lottery tickets for virtual gold; it's just entertainment after all. What I don't want to see are random generator items like the infinity hat... I mean, why make an artist spend 10+ hours making a unique, sweet a** item and give it a 2% appearance rate? Just offer quality items in the cash shop, and people will buy them.

Granted if you would have had a hat release in the CS, it may have turned out like the Eastern Zodiac release... but there's something to be said for a company that sells a product where the customer knows what they're getting before they buy it... I mean, how long before the MC we get in an envelope each month is determined by random chance?

...Though, I think a good idea would be the institution of a "Shiny" item, similar to in pokemon. I'll explain if you aren't familiar, and if you aren't interest, just don't bother reading. (But I did read YOUR entry... I suppose if you're bored it's the least you can do)

So anyways, in Pokemon, you have a 1:8192 chance of encountering a "shiny", which is just like a regular pokemon, except a different color. You could introduce the concept of "shiny" evolution items... like, when an evo item is first purchased from the cash shop, there's a very low random chance that it's a "shiny" item... that way, since it'll be rare... there's more incentive for a user to buy from the CS instead of off the market... it'll be worth a lot more money than a regular one, because of the rarity... and the gold the user gets from it, if he or she chooses to sell it, comes straight from the economy itself.... anyways, just a suggestion. I think it would have been pretty sweet if 1:500 people that bought a Green Corallus Egg ended up with a Black Corallus Egg instead.

(On a side note: You rock and I like your Journal lots. Keep things under control on the backend. We trust ya.)



Spirrow
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TrulyCapricious
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 05:16am
I'm with Miles To Go on this one...

How can you justify having a "Gold Sink" Listing Fee in our Market Place and then turn around and sell bags that contain Gaia Gold? It's not only counter-intuitive, it suggests that Staff has decided that the end-users are too stupid to notice the contradiction. This is the first grab-bag you guys have released that I haven't spent any money on. And I won't spend any money on it. You guys have really lost my trust on this one. But worse than that - you've lost my money. I'm finished donating to Gaia.


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 05:19am
I dont like the idea...
It sure helps to those can buy them with cash, but its kind of unfair for those like me that cant "buy" them. This give more gold to gaians, gaians with more golds buy more expensive items to re-sell them later more expensive. Then more people will buy more of this, EI, MC, Cash to be able to afford their desired items, just for later be sold again. Its a vicious circle that gives more money to gaia. If thats not corporative... =/
Its like botters that makes high amount of golds, just that this is "legal".
I just see it as another way for gaia to make even more money.



The_last_alchemist
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Endrael
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 05:21am
It's about time we all get out

Panagrammic, you are made of win and awesome for this post. xd I was hoping someone on staff would address this.

I spent several hours this afternoon in site feedback explaining to people that the bag of win isn't even remotely as terrible as they're making it out to be. I was marginally successful, but I gave up after a while because it was just not worth the effort. Being a vendor (a market whore, more specifically), I think I generally have a pretty good idea of what's going on with the site's economy, and I see the fluctuations all the time every time some big new item is released or the pixel stores get a huge, popular update.

We're in the bubble phase right now, and people just aren't wanting to see that. Part of it, probably the main reason for it, is just the ZOMGPRICESHOCK of seeing lots of items jump 20k, 30k, 50k, 100k or more in a matter of hours, so they automatically go into hoard mentality. They'll start to realize in a few days when prices start to come back down that the gold being brought into the economy isn't going to have that much of an impact in the long run because of the various gold sinks and the fact that, with all their newfound wealth, left over from buying their quest items, people will likely splurge in the pixel shops. 2% fee on bubble inflated items + pixel shop gold sink = lots of the new gold leaving the economy.

I still think I'm going to generally avoid site feedback for the next few days, though. sweatdrop

and vote for love.


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 05:24am
    User ImageI don't really get why people are making a big deal about this.
    I mean yeah.. People get some gold.
    But for all the milllions of gold being granted to them, there's still billions of gold going around Gaia.
    This is just a drop in a bucket.



[K]iba [I]nuzuka
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dBEf-GAEc-18E-BBAf
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 05:31am
Thanks for this.


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 05:36am
Another thought occurs to me. If this gets more gold per $ than the bot sites, then you could price them out of business! twisted



Spriteless Girl
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deadrun
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 05:36am
I don't understand the anger!
this is not gold from nothing, I spent 50 dollars today on these bags, that is not free. O.o

are people on this site capable of being satisfied?


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 05:46am
i like it. biggrin thanks panagrammic - you rock! biggrin



snufflypoo
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AcidTeiae
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 06:06am
Oh god, thank you, thank you so much

When I first saw the bags, I thought it was a cool idea. But then I go to the GCD, all bitching on the 'end of Gaia' and 'Gaia has sold out'. And saying 'The cash shop gets all the updates!'....We JUST got a huge item update last week, I like this system better. Big updates every month, then A few scattered in the Cash Shop, it keeps things interesting, without overloading us.

Do I fear this will effect the economy? Of course, but putting that much gold into the system of course will. But I have a feeling these bags won't be around long, especially with the feedback they're getting.

At the same time, your math makes sense. Not everyone is winning 1 mil, but people who win them are bound to brag more about it (I never could because of fear of hacking). But people with 03 items complaining they'll never be able to sell anything to make money? Thats just whiny, and really annoying. I understand not wanting to sell your 03 items, but don't say you could sell them and never buy anything

I have a feeling you guys will come up with a good gold sink, ala Middle Ages items. And once these bags go out of the shop things will return to normal. In the meantime, I'll sit back and watch the wank

Thanks for the info though =D


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 06:55am
I took basic econ in high school, and I thought about this. What is the cash shop? Trade in RL money for items. Your simply introducing new items into the econ. right? well, that's OK, because then people with EXISTING gold are only moving the existing gold around, not introducing NEW gold into the economy. Introducing NEW gold into the economy is something we want less of, right? decreasing inflation?
Well, if you have something you buy from the CS that introduces pure gold, not items or anything, into the econ, that is causing an increase in the current gold supply for all users, and will do nothing but spike up the prices of everything.

This item is a disaster, and I can't see any way for this to be a good thing.



Juge Varius
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Ary the Grey Master
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 08:47am
Okay...I'm not worried about the 1 million payout. I'm worried about all the other payouts. People have been buying 5-10 bags, and from what I'm reading everywhere have gotten about 80K from the coins within (That's a conservative estimate, but it has to be according to the percieved/actual probability factor).

So, let's do the math here, and let's knock it down to 50K, that seems fair, 50K per about 40,000 people that just bought these bags. 2,000,000,000g (This is an estimate, but anywhere even remotely in the ballpark is disgusting) according to the estimates has just been pumped into the economy. I doubt the 2% in the MP will decline this value anytime soon, and it's only in the first few hours of the bag's sales. You can expect several billion gold generated from this alone. You're the economist, you know that billions of gold pumped into this economy with nowhere to go only raises prices and causes inflation...so I pose the question:

How is this a good thing again?


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 09:33am
I think it's a neat idea. I myself got a 25k coin and a Belted Top (which I forgot existed sweatdrop )

I plan on buying more when I go deposit a check in the bank. xD I'm a sucker for chance... I'm hoping for a certain store item more so than a million gold to be honest. ninja

The only gold I've spent so far from that 25k was in the gold shops. Gold sink in action. xD I don't see why people have to freak out over such things all the time.



Ginger Flare
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Cosmic Remnant
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 09:56am
I understand each dollar that the BoW is bought with will go to help Gaia but I really hope you guys add more goldsinks to offset the problem that they will cause. The annoucement said the lowest items are 5K. Sell them to the shops that'd be 2.5K, sell them on the MP or in the exchange that's 5K or more. The problem isn't probabilities, it's the fact that gold is being introduced into the economy like crazy. More gold compared to items equal inflation and our gold worth less per item.


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 11:47am
Oh, please... rolleyes
Just look at the marketplace: That fricking Bag is causing much inflation, if you care about Gaia, remove it now.

If you only care about money, keep it forever and kill a great site.



Syd Barrett
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France Hopper
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 12:17pm
I keep tabs on certain items and their price has jumped - but only by a very few gold - since the release of the bag. However, it doesn't look like anyone has bought one of these bags from the marketplace yet (or it's still too early) because graphs are showing a blank. But still, who would want to pay 33k gold for an item where there is a extremely low chance of striking it rich?

Now look at the coins individually in the mp. There's only 3 1mils listed and all the coins listed are listed at a price higher than they're worth. Whoever buys one is a sucker; the seller is the winner pulls in an extra 100 gold or more.

The idea of becoming a millionaire on Gaia is exciting but like the real world lotto, chances are slim. As for inflation, it appears to be maybe 5-15 gold on some items (like for example old quest items before worth 10 gold have shot up to 25-30). Not too big of a jump.

In closing the thing that stumps me most is why would some one really want one?
You're either paying real money for the small chance of getting a rare virtual item
OR
You being suckered by paying more for the coins in the mp than they pay-out.

Therefore, I don't think this item is too bad. Inflation is pretty low, it's pumping a lot of money in to gaia (gold and cash), and it's so dumbly priced in the mp you'd have to be nuts to buy it from there.

Wow long comment XD


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 01:36pm
xD At least you guys see that this could be a potential issue. Are you guys planning a gold sink of some kind to off set any adverse reactions from the bag??

--Lolli
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>>{.. We have cookies and your Longcats ..}<<



Lady Rebellion
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MokieMorty
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 02:12pm
Ah, I see! Now that you lay it out like that, it all makes sense. It's very clever, in my opinion. (And Gaia gets to make a buck, too so it's a win/win.)


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 06:34pm
Thanks for this, finally a staff addressed the issue. However the inflation is already happening, like what these guys pointed out previously, even if you only have a low chance in getting the million coin, the little ones contributes more to the inflation. Since like you have stated you have more chance of getting a coin worth less than a million, if 3 users for example bought, say 10 bag of wins each and they've gotten at least 3 Mythrill Coins out of it it does raise the inflation.

Because it basically pulls out gold out of nowhere. I don't see any deflation happening, sure some of those Evolving Items and NPC Gold Store items deflated but have you seen the older MCs? Elemental Hair rose 20k in less than a day, so does Gift of the Gods, which rose half of it's worth and not to mention Gift of the Goddess which never broke the record of almost reaching 40k+, and it all happened in less than a day.



Raven Noireheart
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pirhan
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 06:59pm
Thank you for taking the time to post this Panagrammic. :3


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 09:26pm
Part of the problem is the perceived effect that it has on the economy. While maybe in the long run, the actual effect wouldn't be that great. However, the perceived effect is what's causing prices to jump.

Overall, it's a poorly thought-out item.

I thank you for taking the time to address the problem.

Though I still have a matter of doubt as even you mentioned the contract of the expected outcome and the actual outcome. Theoretically, it shouldn't be that bad, but then again, there are already effects that you did not predict. So, it's pretty much anything goes at the moment.

My only suggestion is that you perhaps make this more public? Maybe go post this in an announcement so people know what's going on? It's bloody hard to find the developer journals, and I know this is kind-of on purpose. However, it should still be available for everyone to easily access.



Zakiyama
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DarkElf27
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 09:36pm
Put simply, nothing in the Cash Shop can be called a gold sink; no gold is spent on it! It makes Gaia a dollar profit, but it brings gold into the economy without removing any gold.

Your response might be that the tax in the market acts as a gold sink on the item, but that doesn't either: 2% is removed, 98% is added. Not only that, but the 2% tax never acted as a working tool against inflation; as part of my quest, I keep track of the prices of dozens of collectibles in my possession, and as soon as the tax was implemented, prices starting going up at a much greater rate and did not stabilize.


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 09:58pm
Thanks for explaining, but I still don't like what the CEO is doing. It is inflation, because of this item. 1 million gold comes in the servers suddenly, adding mroe to the flow. sad (



pure dark star
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Queen_Succubus
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 10:02pm
Ok, not to sound like like an Anime character from Fullmetal Alchemist but, this thing sorta sounds like the opposite of equivalent exchange, you know? To obtain something of equal value must be lost, but with the bag of win we are getting something from nothing, and that hurts the natural flow of things. Do you understand what I'm saying, or do I sound like a complete idiot? sweatdrop


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 10:35pm
bag of win = legal gold generators



Miserable pile of secrets
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France Hopper
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 11:01pm
Ok dumb idea:
Why can't you guys just recall gold freely floating around (like the stuff that goes to shops)?
Or how about a higher tax on more luxurious goods?

I'd also like to bring up bag of win isn't the only thing that produces pretty much free gold. There's the daily chance and bonus too.


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 11:12pm
      I believe you asked for some examples, and here are just a few:

      Whip of Fire
      Whip of Ice
      Guitar of Angellus
      Guitar of Demona
      Inari's Beads

      But as to this Entry, I appreciate that you care enough to try and address this issue that has so many Gaians worried. I'm afraid that I don't see how this could NOT cause inflation. I mean, it's entering extra money into the system, at a potentially very high rate.

      But, I do hope that I am mistaken, and that you and the other Gaia staff will keep this under control.



frozen_water
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Dreamway Express
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commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 11:55pm
My concern is not so much the Bag of Win's inflationary effects, but rather, the difference it creates between those who can afford cash cards in real life and those who cannot. Now, if you cannot afford the cards, you don't have a chance at getting 1 million gold, unless you buy it at the marketplace.

With the nation and the world in the economic crisis it is now, I just fail to see how many people have all this money to shell out for a website.

My suggestion to bring in more actual profit to Gaia is to cool down with the cash items, and perhaps work a bit harder on the MCs.


commentCommented on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 @ 11:58pm
The item that I have been questing for for 3 months, staff of the angels, jumped from 485k to 650k almost overnight. I had about 10k to go to get it. obviously, I'm a bit pissed about this. Do you see the inflated mp prices dropping anytime in the near future? I am really sad about not getting my item D:



KaimanaRose
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Treklink256
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commentCommented on: Thu May 01, 2008 @ 12:08am
Some examples of items I've noticed a sudden inflation from since the item was introduced a day or two ago:

G-Blade - was 95k, now 150k+
Coco Plushie - bought a couple days ago for 315k, now 370k+
Wind Security Blanket - was steadily selling for 210k, now 260k+
Kiki Plushie - was steadily selling for 800k, now 880k+
Ancient Katana - Was down to 410k, now 440k+
Chyaku Norisu Scarf - was 275k, now 350k+
Staff of the Angels - was <500k, now 640k+
Solar Headdress - was 100k, now 140k


commentCommented on: Thu May 01, 2008 @ 12:38am
what if there is a much higher number of this item purchased than expected? its just that this item has added hundreds of millions, which i realize is truly a drop in the ocean, but what if there is more gold added than expected?



Dyran-S
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Dyran-S
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commentCommented on: Thu May 01, 2008 @ 12:41am
it is not like the lottery. the lottery does not add money to the economy.


commentCommented on: Thu May 01, 2008 @ 01:38am
Wow pulling it already? Not a bad idea actually... I think this has caused more trouble than it's worth.



France Hopper
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Queene of the May
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commentCommented on: Thu May 01, 2008 @ 02:32am
Gee thanks Gaia...

You bring out a really neat Cash Shop item on a Weds. and then when folks complain too loudly you pull it back a day later. Way to cave in Gaia. stare

And way to screw over those of us who get paid on a Friday.


commentCommented on: Thu May 01, 2008 @ 03:58am
You of all people should know, Panagrammic, that a lot of problems can be generated by even a perceived increase in spendable gold. People have listed some good examples of jumps in prices, and no, they weren't AI'd, you can't pin this on that.

Even if the actual expected value of the bags is "low" (and as several people have pointed out above, how do you define "low"? Sure, 1mil isn't much when the entire economy has 10billion in it, but it's still a bigger wallop in one go than you've ever put out there before), the perceived value is high, and people start accepting higher prices on items. It's the same reason why items that are AI'd, even after they stabilize in price, are often higher than they were before the AI. People get accustom to the new prices, and find them acceptable. People have short term memories: they don't remember Kikis were 800k just a few weeks ago. They're 880k now, and that's what they remember. Sure, prices will dampen out, they always do, but mark my words: there will be an increase. A small one, perhaps, but every item that jumped because of the bags will experience an increase of a few percent after stabilization.

That said, I'm sure it's not as big of an issue as people are making it out to be (MCSOURFACE STRIKES AGAIN! xd ), but it certainly IS an issue. It's your economy, but be careful with it! It's fragile! biggrin Take good care of it, and it will blossom and grow! Chi-chi-chi-chia!

And I really hope you would never implement price controls. Socialism is the last thing Gaia needs. I'd be REALLY disappointed if you guys pulled something like that. Socialism is not cool. Irrational behavior is expected. If you want to sell your Fabrige egg for three nickels and an old toupee, obviously you don't deserve to have a Fabrige egg.



AlexDitto
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Bang Wa Cherry
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commentCommented on: Thu May 01, 2008 @ 05:02am
This post will come off as contradicting, but I dont mind.

I did not see the need to pull the bag within half of a day, people just finding out about it don't get the chance to use their Cash that they sent specifically for the item.

Why didn't you pay attention to the Positive comments about the Bag?

The thing was pretty much a lottery. That is what I saw it as.
It is amazing how much Users can push Gaia to do something. Almost Bully in a way.


If you had something set to be removed at a specific time and date, just leave it the way you want it. You listened to Rabid post for one day and that was it? Will it always be this way?
Letting GCD and SF rule for the whole site? I understand that is where you go to get Gaia related feedback, but seriously... a lot of people do not post in the SF or GCD and I am sure they liked the Item.

MTV Store (Which I actually Like)
has been getting bashed left and right, yet it still remains.


commentCommented on: Thu May 01, 2008 @ 05:34am
I don't think most people here would agree that the idea of a new person becoming rich is a good thing. Of course, this is coming from a generation of users who had to bump, work the MP, play games, etc. to make their gold. All this new fangled buying items from the cash shop and selling them in the MP makes some users upset. XD

I think the Bag of Win was a good idea...but I think it should have only been available for a small amount of time (a single day was a good choice...could have been even shorter).

Also, have you ever thought about selling donation items from the first year in the cash shop? I mean for outrageous prices, of course...And only for 24 hours. Or, they could be in another bag of win that isn't always so...winful. Such as a less than 1% chance of getting a previous donation item? And it would be random, which would make the probability of, say, an AFK very low...

Or what about those of us who have donated quite a bit of money to the site since we joined? What about a reward just for the people who've donated a set amount of money over time? It could be their choice of previous donation item, and the year they choose from could be dependent on how much they've donated over their time on Gaia.

Those items should still be very rare...but it isn't cool that we rarely, if ever, see the really rare '03 items. I don't think the wheel at conventions is enough. Heck, even really hard site quests with these items as a prize would suffice.



Eridani Black
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LamingtonQueen
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commentCommented on: Thu May 01, 2008 @ 06:34am

Well, I for one, liked it. It was fun and like a crazy prize giveaway! If it had lasted any longer, I wouldn't have thought it such a good idea - but a really short time period was lots of fun. I would like to comment on your bits about the prices rising irrationally - they rise when they shouldn't because no kind of economics factors in greed or stupidity sweatdrop

Also, I'd just like to say about the word code thing (forgot what it's called) on comments - good on comments and such, but wtf... why is it on reports? You don't get any money from them and what kind of bot is going to draw attention to itself by reporting thousands of stupid things? Anyway, just saying it's annoying because when spam happens at peak hour or a gore/porn troll gets into a forum, it's annoying to have to type in all of these words when you're trying to report someone for something really bad confused


commentCommented on: Thu May 01, 2008 @ 07:17am
The only problem I have about you pulling the item is that you didn't give a days notice about it.

Unfortunately, today I guess it's yesterday now, was very busy one for me. I had deposited money to buy more bags, since I could only afford two the day before. However, I wasn't able to because by the time I was even able to log on was sometime after 10pm (central time) I completely missed out on the chance. I'm sure many were also in the same boat as me, or at least a similar one.

I logged onto Gaia because of my text message alert actually. Which I received after 10pm. A lot of good that did me. It's frustrating that I wasn't able to get the bag because of this.

I think that it's unfair to give hours notice about something leaving. If it had been a typical day where nothing was going on then I still would be angry for people who were in a position such as this.

You really should give a one day notice at least.

I'm sure that many people aren't able to simply buy an item without planning ahead of time on how it'll affect them financially. We do have bills, food and many things that need to be purchases with our money. If we're tapped out by the time you add something that'll only last for 24 hours then we're just screwed. Which is just stupid.

I have to say I'm extremely disappointed.



Ginger Flare
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France Hopper
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commentCommented on: Thu May 01, 2008 @ 12:08pm
Personally, I think the bag failed for two reasons: an overreactive community and poor planing.

I'll start with the community. The reactions towards the bag seemed really too mixed to figure out what the true popular opinion was. Just reading over the only 40+ comments to this journal, reactions I'd say were very mixed. And now seeing the last few ones, pulling the item did no better. However, I also think the overreacting was because of poor planning.

I don't think Gaia did enough research figuring out how the bag would affect the place. For one, the marketplace. Just look at it, prices on luxury items apparent jumped - but so have low value ones to. Now remember the mp before the bag? Luxury things were already selling for way more than they were worth. Now but the bag back into the mp. The bag itself was over price, but the coins... good god. The coins were selling for more than they even paid out! Who the hell would even want to buy them at how outrageously they were priced.
Now, Gaia could've very easily prevented this. For one, to stop inflation the tax on selling the bag of win and the coins could've been higher. Second, the coins probably should've been banned from the marketplace; Gaia should've realized people would sell them for way more than they were worth.
The next part that was poor is the bag apparently paid out way too in favor of the buyer. Look at how many people listed coins in the mp and also notice every value coin is in there. Those numbers should've been drastically lower, and the million should've been so hard to get that it wouldn't even appear in the mp. This also brings me to another point.
The pay-out of the coins was also way to high. I strongly believe the pay-outs should've been capped and 500k, maybe even lower.
If I remember correctly, there was also rare cloths or something that could've been pulled out. The ratio of clothes to coins coming out should have clothes being higher, maybe for every 1k people that got clothes, only 1 would get a coin.
Let's also look at the mp charts. In just days, the gold revenue appears to have broken an all-time high, or at least a second all-time. Now also look at the monthly graph, there were two spikes in it that are way too close together. I don't know what the first one came from but it was apparently something that made people rich. From the graph it's hard to see how long things leveled out for but it was only for two weeks, way to early to have another spike.

Now we've finally come to the pulling of the item. The comments in this journal alone show people aren't too happy with that. The reasons you, Pan, have posted for pulling the item were indeed seen, but they should've been seen in advance.
I was hoping pulling the item would calm things down but obviously this comment says different.
Pulling the bag does calm things down a bit was it was pulled at a kinda random time that should've been set in advance. I would've suggested some kind of countdown on the home page showing how much time people had left to get it.
Now you mention it sold far more than expected. Why didn't you guys cap it then? Make like 2 million in stock to buy? Well OK now we would have people stock piling it. Easy to counter: make the in stock number secret and limit people to only maybe 5 bags.

Not only do I think this comment is long enough and I've made my point, but I'm out stuff to say razz

So there's my final opinion, sorry about the length.

EDIT: Just looked over my first post and wow my opinion has changed now too.

"Well I think it's the coolest thing Gaia has rolled out so far (except for maybe that G9 laptop I'm hoping to get one day...)

But anyway, it's like a 3 in 1:
1) Economic Stimulus Check (yep ripped that from the government)
2) Lottery
3) Instant win game (or lose if you buy it in the mp right now)

The economy and marketplace should look very interesting for a while..."

Well now I don't think it's the coolest thing. Maybe actually one of the worst.

Economic Stimulus turned into Economic Explodus

Lottery - maybe too good of one with not enough counter measures

Instant win - if you struck rich, then yes. If you got screwed because it got pulled too fast or because it's outrageously overpriced in the mp, than instant lose.

Speaking of which, I think the item needs to be pulled from the mp for awhile or definitely have special rules for it's selling.

Now I think I'm really done.


commentCommented on: Thu May 01, 2008 @ 01:47pm
You did not consider your European Customers when you chose to remove the bag from the CS. You should give a fairer amount of warning before removing an item.

neutral



Fishy Demon
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